Gill Kernick on Grenfell - the disaster we still haven't learned from
When something goes badly wrong, we investigate it. Reports are written. Recommendations are made. Lessons are identified. But do we actually learn them?
Episode Summary
Returning to the show, Gill Kernick joins me to discuss the substantially revised second edition of her book about the Grenfell Tower disaster, following the publication of the Grenfell Inquiry's final report. Gill has a unique perspective on Grenfell. She lived on the 21st floor of the tower before moving out three years before the fire. Professionally, she has spent decades helping organisations in high-hazard industries understand leadership, safety and major accidents.
When Gill first appeared on the podcast, the Inquiry was still underway. Seven years later, its conclusions have revealed an even more disturbing picture—not of one catastrophic mistake, but of systemic failure involving government, regulators, manufacturers, certification bodies and the construction industry.
But this episode isn't just about Grenfell. It's about why organisations struggle to learn from failure, why compliance isn't the same as understanding, why we crave simple explanations for complex problems, and why genuine learning is much harder than writing another report. If you haven't already listened to Gill's previous appearances on the podcast, I'd strongly recommend doing so. Together, the conversations chart how understanding evolves as new evidence emerges.
What you'll learn In this episode
In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore:
- Why Gill decided to write a second edition after the Grenfell Inquiry concluded
- The shocking scale of the systemic failures uncovered by the Inquiry
- Why disasters rarely have a single root cause
- The hidden dangers of deregulation and "compliance theatre"
- Why organisations identify lessons but rarely learn them
- The importance of understanding the spirit—not just the letter—of regulation
- Why complexity requires different kinds of leadership
- How AI might help organisations learn lessons in real time
- Why hope is, as Gill puts it, "an act of resistance"
00:00 – Do we really learn lessons from disasters?
02:45 – Gill's personal connection to Grenfell Tower
05:15 – Why the second edition became necessary after the Inquiry
06:30 – The Inquiry's most shocking findings
10:00 – When regulators knew the risks—but failed to act
12:00 – Implicit trust and why we rely on systems we don't understand
13:00 – Deregulation and the unintended consequences of political narratives
17:00 – Compliance versus understanding the intent behind regulation
20:00 – Why regulations struggle to keep pace with technology and complexity
24:00 – Hope as an act of resistance 25:00 – Why we don't actually learn lessons
27:00 – Is a seven-year inquiry too long?
33:00 – Why "post-Grenfell" reforms miss the real point
37:00 – Communities of grief and change
39:00 – Why Gill rewrote the book instead of writing a new one
44:00 – How the experience changed Gill's own thinking
50:00 – Speaking up in ways that actually get heard
53:30 – Practical advice for learning in complex systems
55:00 – "Lessons learning" instead of "lessons learned"
59:00 – Final reflections
Links
Gill's website, The Grenfell Enquirer
Her book 'Catastrophe & Systemic Change'
Gill's LinkedIn:
Her previous show appearances
- Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part One
- Gill Kernick on the Grenfell Tower Disaster — Part Two
